Hey, there! Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, wherein things are getting tense and clearly building up to… something dramatic. But what might it be? Well, we’re not there yet; this week Kaladin makes a discovery that gives us a lot of information, but mostly is a disappointment when considering his needs. Meanwhile, Shallan faces some very hard truths and gains encouragement from an unexpected source.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread we also discuss some things from Mistborn in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin and Azure, Shallan and Wit
WHERE: On the wall of Kholinar, in Muri’s tiny room
WHEN: 1174.2.3.3 (the day after the previous chapter)
Kaladin tells Azure who he really is and discovers that the way they’re getting food is a Soulcaster secreted away in an aluminum-lined bunker. Meanwhile, Shallan has an emotional breakdown and is visited by Hoid, who gives her some much needed advice and—of course—a story.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Titles
Chapter 81: Ithi and Her Sister
We keep poor Ithi and her sister working nonstop, trading off the Soulcaster.
A: Indeed. They’re turning into vines, but they’re feeding people.
Chapter 82: The Girl Who Stood Up
“I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up.”
A: The Girl Who Stood Up isn’t a direct quote from the chapter, but rather a combination of the name of the story (see also Chapter 25, The Girl Who Looked Up) and the above quote.
Heralds
Chapter 81: Battah (Counsellor, Wise/careful, Elsecallers) and Kalak (Maker, Resolute/Builder, Willshapers)
A: I’m guessing Battar represents both the caution shown in hiding the Soulcasters, and the fact that they’re Soulcasting—something we’ve seen our favorite Elsecaller demonstrate a knack for doing. Could Azure also reflect the role of Counsellor? Kalak, also on a guess, is tied to the determination of Azure and the Soulcasters to do whatever needs to be done for the city. But those are just guesses.
Chapter 82: Joker and Talenelat (Soldier, Dependable/Resourceful, Stonewards)
A: The Joker is pretty obvious: Hoid is central to the entire story with Shallan. Taln is mostly likely there for the final scene of the chapter: Kaladin and the Wall Guard “army” he brings to Elhokar.
Icons
Kaladin’s Banner and Spears; Shallan’s Pattern
Epigraph
We are uncertain the effect this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.
—From drawer 30-20, fifth emerald
A: Can I just point out the Knight Radiant from Shinovar here? We saw at least one Thaylen in the earlier epigraphs, and I suspect, given the wording of the Chapter 62 epigraph (“I wish to submit my formal protest…”) it’s likely that author is Azish. I like seeing the many origins—and I wish we had a few more made clear! Also, Naze-daughter-Kuzodo was spot on.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
Surely this will bring—at long last—the end to war that the Heralds promised us.
—From drawer 30-20, final emerald
A: As was pointed out in the comments a few weeks ago, the war here is probably referring to the False Desolation, even though the Heralds made their promise several millennia earlier. I sure would like to know just how much warring went on between Aharietiam and the False Desolation, but I suppose it at least continued sporadically the whole time.
Thematic Thoughts
“There’s a difference between listening to your elders and just being as frightened as everyone else.”
L: We see this theme repeated time and again in recent chapters, and in the story as a whole. Following orders blindly without question, or simply accepting what you see/read/hear as truth without pausing to consider for yourself, are often questioned. As Wit said in The Way of Kings, “The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon.” Autonomy and free will are integral parts of this story, and a recurring theme.
“People learn things from art.”
“Blasphemy! Art is not art if it has a function.” … “Take this fork, “Wit said. “It has a use. Eating. Now, if it were ornamented by a master artisan, would that change its function? … No, of course not. It has the same use, ornamented or not. The art is the part that serves no purpose.”
“It makes me happy, Wit. That’s a purpose.”
L: This is just a really interesting insight.
Stories & Songs
The woman had an inhuman look to her; she seemed to be growing vines under her skin, and they peeked out around her eyes, growing from the corners and spreading down her face like runners of ivy.
L: Every time I see this, it creeps me out. I feel so bad for these people who are providing a service for the societies in which they live, and pay for it with their lives.
A: To be fair, soldiers often provide a service and pay with their lives too. But I’ll agree, this is particularly creepy, because it’s such a slow and visible process, and it changes them into something not human before they actually die.
So they lived in the darkness, farmed in the darkness, ate in the darkness.
L: This has to be allegory.
A: Well, yes and no, assuming that this is a fable from the time humans arrived on Roshar. Yes, in that I’m pretty sure it wasn’t literally dark where they lived. But also no, in that the Misted Mountains block so much of the storm effect from Shinovar—and maybe blocked the highstorms entirely, at the time—that they were essentially without Investiture from the Stormlight. If I’m guessing right (which, who knows!) they lived for a time without Investiture, but eventually someone didn’t like the restriction of staying on their side of the mountains, and discovered that farther east, there was magic to be had… And all of this is predicated on the idea that Hoid is using a cosmology fable to address Shallan’s personal issues, which is pretty meta.
L: Well, I meant something more along the lines of darkness being symbolic of ignorance, but… all that too.
A: I wonder how many levels of allegory we’re going to see in this story before we’re done with it!
L: If there’s anything I learned in my college literature classes, it was that there’s always another allegory.
And then… light, for the first time in the village, followed by the coming of the storms—boiling over the wall.
A: Continuing the cosmology interpretation, I have no idea whether this change was literally that dramatic, or whether someone blasted a cut through the mountains to allow the storms to enter, or… quite what this represents in historical fact. Come to think of it, we don’t even really know that they were originally restricted to what is now Shinovar, but it makes the most sense.
“The people suffered,” Wit said, “but each storm brought light renewed, for it could never be put back, now that it had been taken. And people, for all their hardship, would never choose to go back. Not now that they could see.”
L: There are a lot of different interpretations of this, lots of ways that it could be analyzed or applied. In this particular case, I love that Hoid is helping Shallan to see that each storm (hardship in her life) is followed by light (understanding, learning, knowledge).
A: It’s a hard way to learn, but effective if you can take it.
Bruised & Broken
With nothing to see, her mind provided images.
Her father, face turning purple as she strangled him, singing a lullaby.
Her mother, dead with burned eyes.
Tyn, run through by Pattern.
Kabsal, shaking on the floor as he succumbed to poison.
Yalb, the incorrigible sailor from the Wind’s Pleasure, dead in the depths of the sea.
An unnamed coachman, murdered by members of the Ghostbloods.
Now Grund, his head opened up.
L: Poor thing. When you see it all listed out like this, it’s really no wonder she has issues.
A: This is why it hurts me so much when I see readers who dislike Shallan and characterize her as a spoiled brat—or worse, a spoiled brat who kills people when she doesn’t get her way. The first three were directly her doing, and each of them was either self-defense or defense of others. Kabsal died of his own poison, attempting to kill Jasnah. Yalb (aside from the fact that he might not be dead) was dumped into the sea by her Soulcasting, but the Ghostbloods were planning to kill everyone on board because of Jasnah, not Shallan. The other two… yes, they were killed because of their association with her, but the killing was done by evil people who made their own choices. Those last four are not her fault—though it will take a while for her to accept that—but I don’t comprehend readers who don’t get it.
L: This said, it’s totally fair for people not to like a character for any reason at all. We all have things that draw us towards or push us away from certain character archetypes. But it’s entirely possible to dislike a character because of who they are while still appreciating the fact that they’re a well-written character. For instance, I despise Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games. If she were a real person, she’s not someone I would want to interact with. But I can still appreciate that she’s well-written.
A: Same for Moash, for that matter. Or Sadeas or Amaram. I loathe the characters, but they’re very well written.
Veil had tried to help these people, but had succeeded only in making their lives worse. The lie that was Veil became suddenly manifest. She hadn’t lived on the streets and she didn’t know how to help people. Pretending to have experience didn’t mean she actually did.
L: Although I’m sad that it took such an awful event to open her eyes to this, I’m glad that it happened. This is such an important realization for Shallan to have.
A: So true. She’ll never quit breaking herself in pieces until she realizes it doesn’t work.
She had to stop this. She had to get over the tantrum and go back to the tailor’s shop.
She’d do it. She’d shove all this to the back of her mind, with everything else she ignored. They could all fester together.
L: Ugh. No, Shallan! First of all, the fact that she views this legitimate breakdown as a tantrum proves how little she knows about healing her own issues. Secondly… I really wish that she would open up to Adolin or Kaladin about all this. Wit is nice to be able to talk to, but he’s not around often, and Shallan really needs someone close to her to confide in.
A: I’ll agree that she needs someone to talk to, but as someone with (much lesser!) experience in dissociating oneself from traumatic events, this is much harder than it sounds. It’s pretty hard to convince yourself that there’s any value whatsoever in trying to reintegrate that person with this one.
L: True. And it’s similarly hard to reach out for help, even to those you’re closest to.
He leaned down, blowing at the crem dust on the floor. It swirled up, making the figure of a girl. It gave the brief impression of her standing before a wall, but then disintegrated back into dust. He tried again, and it swirled a little higher this time, but still fell back to dust.
“A little help?” he asked. He pushed a bag of spheres across the ground toward Shallan.
L: I feel as if he’s doing this to help her break out of her funk. Giving her something concrete to do, rather than sit and passively watch. I don’t believe for a minute that he was actually having trouble with so small an illusion.
A: Not for a skinny minute.
“And the girl realizes that the wall wasn’t to keep something in, but to keep her and her people out.”
“Because?”
“Because we’re monsters.”
Wit stepped over to Shallan, then quietly folded his arms around her. “Oh, child. The world is monstrous at times, and there are those who would have you believe that you are terrible by association.”
“I am.”
“No. For you see, it flows the other direction. You are not worse for your association with the world, but it is better for its association with you.”
A: Right here is where the fable’s (purported, at least by me!) origin and its equal application to Shallan breaks down. I can’t say that the humans who left Shinovar were necessarily monsters, but the eventual conflict with the Singers had some monstrous impacts on the world. From here on, the allegory is for Shallan alone. (And maybe some of us.)
The illusion of Shallan to the left gasped, then backed up against the wall of the room, shaking her head. She collapsed, head down against her legs, curling up.
“Poor fool,” Shallan whispered. “Everything she tries only makes the world worse. She was broken by her father, then broke herself in turn. She’s worthless, Wit.”
“And that one?”
“No different,” Shallan said, tiring of this game. She gave the second illusion the same memories. Father. Heleran. Failing Jasnah. Everything.
The illusory Shallan stiffened. Then set her jaw and stood there.
A: I … I want to say something profound about this, but it’s pretty profound on its own. I’ll shut up. (Temporarily.)
“It’s terrible,” Wit said, stepping up beside her, “to have been hurt. It’s unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan… it’s okay to live on.”
A: I’m here to tell you, that’s not easy.
L: It’s definitely not.
She shook her head.
“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.”
A: I feel so awful for Shallan here, because this really is true. Everything you imagine yourself to be is fake, if you can’t accept that your own experiences are part of you. Not that you have to wallow in them, but you have to acknowledge them before you can get over them.
Accept the pain, but don’t accept that you deserved it.
L: And there it is. The Words she needed all along. But how long will it be until she truly embraces them? As much as I wish that this could be a major turning point for her character, true healing takes time and effort. It would be unrealistic for her to suddenly pull a 180 here and be completely well. But this is a step in the right direction for her, a signpost showing her the way towards true healing.
A: Actually, it is a major turning point in one sense. It will definitely be a long process, but in a way it’s like the list of deaths earlier. When you accept that the person who caused you the pain did an evil thing, and it was their own decision to do it, you start the process of dealing with it in a different, and hopefully better, way.
For what it’s worth, it’s really important for the people trying to help—the people like Wit, here—to realize that, right or wrong, victims of abuse or trauma often do feel like it’s their own fault. Take the killing of Shallan’s mother: Lady Davar may or may not have been a loving mother originally, but when she discovered that Shallan was Surgebinding, she (and her Skybreaker associates) decided that even an 11-year-old girl had to be killed for it. If Lady Davar didn’t tell Shallan it was her own doing, I’ll eat my hat. I’d bet she made it eminently clear that it was Shallan’s actions that made this necessary; an 11-year-old girl, even one who defends herself by any means available, will still internalize that blame and believe it. We saw directly in the flashbacks how her father told her that all his terrible behavior was her fault. Of course she believed it deep down, even though on the surface she could (maybe) deny it.
We all believe it deep down, because we all know that we’ve done wrong or foolish things (whether or not in relation to the incident in question). The place we need to get to is the realization that, even if we did make unwise decisions at the time, the other person was still responsible for their own actions, and we’re responsible for ours. Of course, in Shallan’s case as with most childhood abuses, she hadn’t even made unwise decisions; she was a child who had no way of knowing what to do about the situation. As an adult, you can look back and think, “If only I had…”—but as a child, you didn’t have the knowledge or experience to tell you what to do.
Places & Peoples
“You cut a tunnel in one of the windblades, sir?” Beard asked, shocked.
“This has been here longer than any of us have been alive, soldier,” Battalionlord Hadinar said.
L: Interesting. I wonder if these tunnels were created at the same time as the Windblades? If not, might they affect how they function?
A: Ooooh. I hadn’t thought about that! We know that the windblades protect the city from the highstorms, but I’ve always wondered if there was more to them. If the tunnels interfere… that would be fascinating. At the same time…
This corridor, cut through the stone, reminded Kaladin of the strata of Urithiru.
L: Yet another reminder that there’s Something Going On that links these two.
A: And that makes me think that it’s pretty reasonable that the corridors were part of the original design. After all, given the way they provide easy shortcuts without vulnerability to an enemy—or a storm—it seems like an excellent plan.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Nice,” Adolin said. “Shallan, that’s sharp… The red on white.”
L: Stars and stones, but I love Adolin.
A: So not what Shallan was expecting. Adolin is the best.
She turned, frowning. It sounded like marching. “A parade this early?”
They looked out at the street and found Kaladin approaching along with what seemed to be an army of five or six hundred men, wearing the uniforms of the Wall Guard.
Adolin sighed softly. “Of course. He’s probably their leader now or something. Storming bridgeboy.”
L: Storming bridgeboy indeed! I suspect that Adolin has a smidge of jealousy here. He’s a great leader in his own right, but Kaladin just makes it seem so effortless. Adolin works hard to be a good person and a good leader—not that Kaladin doesn’t, but from an outsider perspective, it must not seem that way.
A: I think I’ve exhausted my store of deep thinking for today, but this makes me laugh and sigh at the same time. These two are such a pair. I think you’re right, Lyndsey, that Adolin is displaying a smidge of jealousy. Kaladin does seem to just fall right into leadership positions, as if being a Knight Radiant wasn’t enough. I think Kaladin is a little jealous of Adolin in much the same way. He gets along with everyone so easily, as if being a prince wasn’t enough. There’s probably more to it than that—for both of them—but it’s a very realistic dynamic.
Cosmere Connections
The only other person in the room was the fidgety ardent who painted glyphwards for the platoon.
A: Is it just me, or do others immediately suspect Nazh of infiltrating the Wall Guard for some unknown reason? Just me? I don’t know that it’s him, but every time our attention is drawn to an ardent who doesn’t seem to have a plot-relevant reason to be there, I suspect Nazh.
“Why didn’t the screamers come for you?”
Azure pointed at the sides of the room, and for the first time Kaladin noticed the walls were covered in reflective metal plates. He frowned and rested his fingers against one, and found it cool to the touch. This wasn’t steel, was it?
…
“He warned us to only Soulcast inside a room lined with this metal.”
L: I find the different ways that metal is utilized in the Cosmere to be utterly fascinating. Apparently we have a WoB that this particular metal is aluminum, not steel. This really makes me wonder about connections between the different magic systems of the Cosmere.
A: Aluminum has bizarre properties throughout the Cosmere, and last I checked, Brandon and Peter hadn’t quite got the details sorted out. It’s magically inert, which is just weird. On Scadrial, you can’t affect it with Allomancy, though a Feruchemist can use it to story Identity. On Roshar, you can Soulcast stuff into aluminum, but you can’t Soulcast aluminum into anything else. Shardblades also can’t cut aluminum magically, but only in the same way any other sword would be able to cut through a thin sheet of it—foil, or something the weight of a soda can. Oh, also, Nightblood’s sheath is made of aluminum.
“Soon after the strangeness at the palace began,” Azure said, “a man pulled a chull cart up to the front of our barrack. He had these sheets of metal in the back. He was… an odd fellow. I’ve had interactions with him before.”
“Angular features?” Kaladin guessed. “Quick with an insult. Silly and straight, somehow all at once?”
L: Sup, Hoid.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
For a while, she’d been … everybody. A hundred faces, cycling one after another. … All the nearby refugees had fled, naming her a spren.
A: It occurs to me that this would look very, very much like Cusicesh, the enormous spren in the bay at Kasitor from The Way of Kings, Interlude 5:
That face is shifting, bewilderingly quick. Different human faces appear on the end of its stumplike neck, one after another in blurred succession.
Is that why they call her a spren? Or is it just that they have no other context for Illusion of the sort Shallan has shown them?
L: Oooooooooor is that spren actually some sort of… Lightweaver-adjacent?
A: I only wish we knew!
Quality Quotations
“I cannot judge the worth of a life. I would not dare to attempt it.”
“The longer you live, the more you fail. Failure is the mark of a life well lived.”
“We could just skip the boring part.”
“Skip?” Wit said, aghast. “Skip part of a story?”
That final scene, where Kaladin and Azure march up with their little army, sets up next week’s reread. We’ll just be doing Chapter 83, “Crimson to Break,” as they begin the attempt to retrieve Elhokar’s family and open the Oathgate.
Alice is crazy busy with end-of-the-school year activities. Who knew parents were just as busy as kids at this point? At least, that seems to be the case with high-schoolers who aren’t quite old enough to drive themselves.
Lyndsey adopted a new puppy and named him Sirius Black, because of course she did. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
In Way of Kings I believe, maybe Words of Radiance, there is mention of a shardblade that looks like a horneater’s blade, so I think that is a hint that Rock’s people were also radiants once upon a time.
(Adolin sighed softly. “Of course. He’s probably their leader now or something. Storming bridgeboy.”)
I find this line one of the most amusing in the series. If it comes from jealousy, I don’t think it comes from a bad place.
So much to unravel. “The Girl Who Stood Up” is probably my favorite of Hoid’s stories.
First, about the cosmology fable. I would think that it would have to be access to Stormlight. We know, from WOB, that humans moved from Ashyn to Roshar, and that the Heralds were part of that movement. We know that Surgebinders destroyed Ashyn, so presumably maybe humans lost their own access to Investiture there, assuming it’s local. Once they left Shinovar, they must have gained access to Stormlight and then, of course, you can’t unring that bell. No going back, and they wouldn’t want to.
Second, I think Hoid is actually the perfect candidate to help Shallan with all of this. The way that he talks seems reminiscent of his own experiences. I still believe that he’s a tragic hero and this chapter really solidified him as one of my favorite characters.
Lastly, shouldn’t Azure recognize Hoid? She’s met him before, I think.
Something I’ve wondered about is: are there pairs of soulcaster you could use that would counteract each other’s transformations? So like, cast a bunch of rock on Tuesday and get kind of gritty then cast a bunch of meat on Wednesday to go back to being fleshy. (Of course all of this is moot when it comes to someone with a spren bond.)
@3 Keyblazing Wasn’t it only Siri who met Hoid on Nalthis? I can’t remember Vivenna meeting him, but I might be totally wrong and she met him too. My Warbreaker reread has been too long.
So, I just read the chapter about cymatics in WoK and Kholinar is mentioned as a city that fits the cymatic pattern. There is also implication that the Dawnsingers had something to do with those cities. So…. I would guess that with the strata connection, there is a link between Urithiru, the cymatic cities, the Dawnsingers, etc. I’m excited to learn about all those connections!
Also, I have an new insight/discussion point about the ummade I want to bring up – but I think I’ll wait until we get to the Mythica epigraphs about the unmade.
@3 and 5 : I believe bird is right that only Siri met Hoid in Warbreaker. But… Azure does say right here that she recognized him – inasmuch as she admits she’s had interactions with him before.
About the story, I also really like the Girl Who Looked Up. So many layers. I see a relation to the idea of the Fall from Christianity with them getting the light, too.
@@.-@ soursavior
Clever idea! I don’t think it would work the way you posit, but I like the thinking behind it! I think people theorize soulcasting meat would get you cancerous like protrusions, or maybe flabby flesh like koloss. Potentially combining rock and flesh could be even grosser lol.
It only occurred to me reading this entry, but the juxtaposition is now clear: Brandon is suggesting that Shallan could have actually fed the poor as Shallan by Soulcasting something into grain. Instead she “used” Veil, whose ignorance actually harmed the people she was trying to help.
I took the story to be about how the humans escaped to Roshar. They were in darkness, under Odium’s power, and they found an escape. Of course, that was when life got complicated.
I’m not up to speed on all the history given outside the books, so I could be wrong. But, that’s what the story means to me.
And, yes, I love how the same story told by different people has different meanings in Brandon’s books.
John @2 – “Jealousy” is kinda the wrong word, but… it reminds me of a conversation I had with my two best friends from college, a couple years after we graduated. We all had such different views of each other as compared to ourselves. For example, I saw Candyce as this cute, athletic, coordinated little fireball, and next to her I felt like a giraffe in a tutu. (She’s about 5’3″, and I’m 5’11”, for reference.) Turns out that she saw me as tall, slender, and graceful, and next to me she felt like a stumpy dwarf. We were still close friends, but … we do weird things with comparisons. I think that’s kind of what’s happening here. They aren’t actively envious of one another, but they do see the other’s strengths as something they lack, while not really valuing their own strengths. At least, that’s my take on it.
You know, if more of the Kholin arc was like this, it wouldn’t have been such a slog. Here, we see our Radiants talking to people of actual importance. Azure being here is so much fun, and I just love the idea that as soon as Kal hears of a strange man doing something that seems awfully convenient, he immediately suspects Hoid.
Now…to Shallan. I love this segment. She’s broken, and tries to hide, but finally, someone actually confronts her, telling her its ok, that while its tragic what has happened, she has to continue, that she doesn’t hide. and here on out, she doesn’t have AS much issues with Veil, and as the end of the book shows, she might finally be taking the next step. We will see. It also shows Hoid doing something good for seemingly no real reason but to help Shallan. Sure, you can cynically look at that he’s just preparing her to be a weapon, but….his words are TOO genuine. this isn’t like teasing Renarian to toughen him up, this isn’t like helping out kal with a quick word and a story. here, he seems to be truly honest, a sign we saw of him before when they first met. This is why I like Hoid, not just because of his crossovers and cameos, bt when he gets involved in the story, we get to see a real character, one that pretty much has most of the answers, but is willing ot help. not that I don’t think he won’t be an antagonist later on, he IS up to something after all.
@3,4 WHile Siri is the one to have met him back in warbreaker, Hoid does have a habit of running into important characters, especially since she is a cosmere hopper. not hard to believe that she has run across him before.
@11 Wetlander – I totally get that! My wife is 6′ and she always says she feels like a giraffe – in fact 2 years ago she bought these pajamas that she uses at Halloween (and sometimes when she’s cold in the winter). Anyway, rock that height, Alice!
soursavior @@.-@ – That reminds me of something… what do meat-soulcasters turn into after too much use? We’ve never seen this one yet, that I know of.
whitespine @13 – LOVE IT! Tell your wife hello for me!! :D
@14 – We don’t want to know…that or blood soulcasters…
The two cases we’ve seen where the soulcasters (the people) start to change both occurred with repeated use of just one transformation. The one from the interlude could only do smoke, if I am remembering correctly, and Ithi and her sister -whether or not the device is tuned to only grain or not – are only doing grain transformations. Since many soulcaster devices are tuned to 2 or 3 essences, could varying what transformations you do protect the user? Perhaps it helps balance or anchor them? I’m thinking of how in Goose Girl/Enna Burning knowing //multiple elemental languages can help them balance each other so you aren’t consumed.//
edit: I see now that this is similar to what soursavior @@.-@ was positing – so yeah, I echo that theory.
@17 – I’m not sure who Ithi and her sister ae, but there was also Dalinar’s soulcaster who was turning into stone. I think it was in WoR. They kept a spot hidden with sheets on poles and transformed the air into a building.
@18 Austin
Ithi and her sister were the sisters turning stone to grain in the chapter above.
Personally I do not think the essences would balance out, as by soulcasting so much is widening cracks in the spirit web and turning you into a savant. But it is definitely an interesting thought. Mistborn spoilers below
//Spook was able to balance out the sensory overload of tin savantism with burning pewter but I do not think it healed, or reduced the damage caused by tin savantism//
@9 – Shallan might have been able to feed via soulcasting, but since Kaladin couldn’t surgebind without Screamers it’s likely Soulcasting would have just drawn them as well. Just because Lightweaving is safe doesn’t mean her other surge is as well.
Plus she’s uh, less than competent with that surge. And it’s exceedingly dangerous to mess with. She has a lot of faults these last few chapters, but failure to use soulcasting is probably not one of them.
I’ve finally caught up to the reread, and there’s a point I haven’t seen discussed that’s somewhat relevant. Based on this WoB:
Questioner
On your Tor.com release of Oathbringer, I made a comment, it was about the Windblades being powered by Urithiru. Would that be barking up the right tree or the wrong tree?
Brandon Sanderson
That is a, barking up the wrong tree. Good question. I don’t think I’ve seen that question before.
Questioner
Even [Alice?] brings it up in the next chapter.
Brandon Sanderson
Did she? No, that’s a false correlation, the strata are more just there because of how Roshar works, than they are to make you draw a parallel there.
Questioner
And only Shallan and others can really see the colors *inaudible*.
Brandon Sanderson
Mmmm. That is not a false correlation, right there.
It sounds like only Surgebinders can really see the strata (see also Shallan wondering why nobody else could navigate by them). I wonder why that is?
This chapter is the one that made me think that out of all the characters Hoid has interacted with, Shallan is the most like him. His advice to her seems too on the nose for someone who doesn’t have direct experience with some of the things she goes through. It makes me think about what Shallan the finished project looks like. Will she become a worldhopper storyteller? She seems to have the knack.
Kal and Addie have that buddy cop vibe going. I think Adolin here is sarcastically acknowledging the skills of his best friend and admiring them. Kaladin does the same In other scenes although his comes off as bitterness because he seems less well adjusted emotionally than Adolin. Thinking on this really highlights the fact that the only real friend either of them have had is each other, that their next best candidate betrayed them, Jakamov for Adolin and the eternal douche nozzle Moash for Kaladin.
Shallan’s comment that art makes her happy and that is a purpose in itself is a sign that Shallan is her true self. The persona Veil does not hold art in high regard. I think one reason is that many people have told Shallan that art for arts sake has no true purpose. Thus, Shallan has given her alter ego Veil the prejudice against art’s usefulness that Shallan has heard in the past. IIRC, Shallan was into art before her mother tried to kill her. Also, in her not true image of her family (where she imagines everybody happy), Shallan is drawing. This to me is another sign that the true Shallan enjoys art/drawing.
I am not so sure that Yelb is dead. Maybe because Shallan wants him to be alive and she did that drawing of him coming ashore. Yelb being alive is something I could see. If he is alive, I bet that we, the reader, as well as Shallan, will not find out until the second set of 5 books. I could see Brandon making him a minor character- perhaps one who we see in some Interludes.
I did not read Warbreaker? Can someone give me a summary of what interactions that Hoid had with Vivenna? During Warbreaker, did she know how Hoid was – that he was more than he appeared to be. IIRC, in Mistborn, his appearance was more of a throw-away. Not crucial to the plot.
Alice, would you rather be crazy busy driving your non-driving high-school aged kids or feel like you are crazy for letting them have the keys to the car once they get their driver’s license?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Carl @9: If Shallan had soulcasted (assuming she could do it – at this point, I do not think she has sufficient control or ability with this Surge), would that not have attracted the Screamers? Or is it only using a fabrial that attracts them? Hammerlock @20 beat me to this point.
Wetlandernw @14: A slab of bacon.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I love this chapter.
Back when I was reading the book for the first time, I felt this chapter was the one which made the whole slug worth reading. Having some additional perspective, I am thinking the whole Shallan narrative was both a hit and a miss. It was a hit for the depth of characterization it offered, but a miss as a lot of it just failed to hook on many readers. Hence, I do believe most of the negative comments Shallan’s character is getting are linked to the prolonged focus she got which sadly was combined with little overall plot advancement.
Still, this Shallan chapter was amazing. I love for the insight it gives us on what exactly is happening with Shallan and on the closure it offers for this ill-loved arc. So what is ailing Shallan precisely? Is it a personality disorder as many have theorized? I think the answer has always been within this chapter. Shallan isn’t struggling in figuring who she is, she isn’t fractioning herself, she doesn’t have a dissociative personality disorder, no what ails her is different. She hates herself. She is unable to accept she did what she did and she hates the person who did it. So when her powers allow her to become whoever she wants, she loses it. Why be Shallan when she could be Veil? Why bother with pathetic broken Shallan when she could be Radiant?
Hence, Veil and Radiant are not “sides of Shallan she is suppressing”: they are a pure fabrication of her mind, made-up personas who are plain unrealistic for coming out of the imagination of a broken girl. Veil, the dream-girl, the persona children will make when asked: “Who would be your ideal persona when you grow up?”. A careless, carefree, wild, no strings attached, no need to work nor earn a living, street savvy seductive girl: who wouldn’t want to be Veil? Only grown-ups knowing Veil is nothing more than a front, an idea without substance. Then we have Radiant, the rationale needed one, the persona children will make when asked: “Who do you think you need to be?”. That’s Radiant. This responsible, rational persona who’s also cold and without a personality.
So here, Wit tells us what is really going on: a girl who hates herself so much, she loses herself within the possibility to just… be someone else. And it won’t stop until she starts to love herself until she starts to believe she deserves it which is why the later scenes where she does just this are so important. It is why I believe it marks the beginning of Shallan healing and not the opposite.
On Adolin being jealous: He is most definitely jealous of Kaladin. How can he not be? Kaladin achieved much with little means: he is a self-made man. Everything successes he has, he earned them through hard work, he deserves every single praise he is getting. Kaladin’s path was hard, difficult and one where most people would have given up, except him.
As for Adolin, yes, he works hard. Yes, he probably works harder than Kaladin at trying to be a good leader because it isn’t as natural for him, but most of his successes, he did not earn them. In other words, Adolin is a decent leader because he is the Blackthorn’s son. He did not earn a leadership because he was better than everyone else, it was basically given to him due to his birth. Adolin never earned the trust nor the loyalty of his men: they just follow him because they were told to. Unlike Kaladin who gets people to want to follow him. No one wants to follow Adolin, but they do it because it is how things are: you follow the lighteyes of the upper rank.
It is therefore not surprising Adolin would be jealous of Kaladin, the man who earned the honors given to him.
I am finding this quote fascinating because it shows the root of Shallan’s issues. It is not the fact that she takes on other personas like Veil or Radiant…the problem is that she doesn’t want to admit they are part of Shallan herself rather than separate “people”. It is also interesting that Hoid doesn’t discourage her from using or becoming those other personae, but rather notes she needs to always return to herself.
RE: Soulcasters
I can’t point to a specific place in the books, but my impression is that people can only use one type of soulcaster, and that soulcasters themselves are only capable of 2 or 3 specific functions. So, I don’t know if soursavior’s theory (in comment #4) is even possible given the restrictions on their use.
In re aluminum: Somewhere in one of the Scadrial books we have a nobleman wearing a hat lined with aluminum in order to protect himself from emotional Allomancy. I sometimes wonder whether the entire position of aluminum in the Cosmere derives from wanting to make that one joke.
Another thing to note about aluminum is that at least four Rosharan gemstones have aluminum as their main ingredient by weight: rubies and sapphires are aluminum oxide, while beryls and emeralds are beryllium aluminum oxide. (In all cases, with some impurities to provide color.) So it seems that only metallic aluminum is magically inert.
Shallan’s recent experience was a well-meaning people-helper’s worst njghtmare. Hoid’s intervention may be the best thing that could happen in such a situation.
Beard confesses that he didn’t swim in the Purelake with Dalinar — he swam in it with “the Azish emperor.” If someone told me they swam in the Purelake (or the Reshi Sea, for that matter), I would he tempted to bite them, as I am when people on Earth talk about swimming in pleasant waterways. I have Envy Issues, especially where all things waterways are involved.
“Soulcaster savant” is the Rosharan profession I would most want to not have. Well, I wouldn’t want to be a soldier either, but at least it wouldn’t come with a guarantee of extremely slow and horrific death.
“In half [the stories], the child ignores her parents, wanders out into the woods and gets eaten. In the other half, she discovers great wonders.” Where are those stories from, exactly?
“[…] what seemed to be an army of five or six hundred people.” I can’t imagine seeing that large a crowd (or multitude of anything) and estimating its number, even so broadly, though I know many people can do so. My mind wouldn’t go farther than “a lot.”
Alice:
I never understood why people thought that there was no stormlight in Shinovar – particularly not after Oathbringer unmistakeably demonstrated that the opening of the Honor’s Perpendicularity doesn’t depend on stormy weather. It just travels with the highstorm, but weather conditions don’t create or define it. Now, the Shin consider using stormlight – and IIRC also capturing it in gems, to be blasphemy, but they aren’t less exposed to it’s investiture than everybody else. Here is a relevant WoB:
So, yea, the “Girl who Looked Up” has to be about something less literal. Maybe about the exodus from Ashyn, maybe about humans learning that stormlight can be stored in gems, for a time and used, etc. Also, isn’t there a WoB that all the Heralds, except for possibly Shalash were born on Ashyn? Which means that the humans’ soujourn in Shinovar was quite short – and wouldn’t fit the story either.Re: the soulcaster ardents – didn’t the Wall Guard also have meat in their stew? So, their soulcaster device must have been able to produce it as well.
Gepeto @25: Couldn’t agree more with everything you said here! It seems like Shallan is becoming one of Hoid’s apprentices – a hazardious, but exciting position.
RogerPavelle@26:Veil isn’t part of Shallan, not wholly. Large parts of Veil are the product of Shallan’s imagination, made up from the whole cloth – which is why this persona is so attractive and dangerous to Shallan – because she is purposefully different and doesn’t share her her Truths. Like she herself says in the end – “They weren’t her. She was occasionally them” – which is an important distinction.
@@@@@ Gepeto
I’m surprised that you, Adolin’s staunchest supporter, don’t believe he’s a good leader. You may be correct in saying that he doesn’t think he’s that good a leader, but looking at his interaction with Skar and Drehy, watching how he keeps Kaladin functioning during the Shadesmar expedition, I think you’re selling him short and he is too. The problem is that there are a number of good leadership styles but no analog for his particular flavor on Roshar at this time. It doesn’t help that he has two of the best natural leaders anyone could dream of in Kaladin and Dalinar to look at, neither of which lead like he does. Adolin may harbor some jealousy because Kaladin makes what he has to work at look so easy. Then again Kaladin sees how personable and likeable and charming Adolin is and is jealous that he makes that look so easy. It’s an odd couple type of friendship.
@29: I agree with you on Veil not being Shallan and I love the quote you put. I have always found this quote and this chapter were the two greatest clues as to what is *really* happening to Shallan.
Readers have argued Veil is the side of Shallan she doesn’t want to admit, but it rings false to me. Too much of Veil is made-up ideas Shallan has on who a truly extraordinary person would be for most of it to have any link whatsoever to who Shallan really is. When Veil bashes on both Shallan’s personality and interest in art, it indicates how this persona isn’t a “side of Shallan”. She merely expresses a mix of who Shallan wishes she were and who she thinks she needs to be for certain missions. She doesn’t realise whatever skillset Veil ends up displaying, she has them too, but the whole Veil persona is most definitely not her.
Hence this quote is crucial: Shallan can sometimes be Veil and Radiant, but they aren’t her. Therefore, when they say they’d rather be with Kaladin, they aren’t expressing some side of Shallan she is trying to hide, they are merely expressing what would the rational decision be, based on the personas they are.
The only one who ever mattered was Shallan. It is why her fear of compromising Veil angers me: Veil doesn’t need to be protected. She can use another disguise if this one stops working, but she isn’t seeing it. Veil is like this dear friend she refuses to admit has never been real which is why I do think she’ll need to give her up to fully take control.
Give up both Veil and Radiant. Destroy them. Be in charge.
@30: Adolin is my favorite character, this is true, but I wish not to put him on a pedestal merely because I enjoy his characterization. He certainly is not perfect, neither is he good at everything.
As I said, I do think Adolin is a “decent” leader, but he is not, IMHO, an exceptional one. Not like Kaladin. Or even Dalinar. Certainly not like Gavilar, but definitely better than Elhokar or Shallan. By this I mean, Adolin does a good job with his command, he is decisive, he never falters, he keeps a cold head, but he isn’t inspiring loyalty. If it weren’t for his royal standing, he probably wouldn’t have gotten at command at 23 years old. Maybe he would have gotten it, eventually, but not now. Hence, Adolin never *earned* his commands, unlike Kaladin and Dalinar who *earned* being put in charge of people. Well, Dalinar certainly earned it in ways I disapprove of, but the Alethi have different morality than I do.
I therefore do think you and I are essentially saying the same things. Adolin is a *decent* leader, he isn’t a *bad* one, per say, you listed all of the examples of good leadership he does but, as you also admitted, he isn’t exceptional.
Adolin may be able to converse casually with Skar and Drehy, but he doesn’t have their loyalties nor their trusts: Kaladin does. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking those two would support Adolin if it means not supporting Kaladin. They like Adolin, but he is not one of *them* and they do not feel they owe him their complete loyalty. Adolin may be able to lead men into battle and to do a *decent” job out of his command, he may even have flashes of geniuses (Narack), but his men aren’t loyal to him, they are loyal to Dalinar.
And I think this is exactly part of what causes Adolin’s jealousy, he sees how men such as Kaladin and Dalinar are naturally taking charge, are inspiring loyalty, are making people follow them, not because they are obliged, but because they want to and he finds himself inadequate. Sure, he is a *decent* leader, but in a world about to face a Desolation, they don’t need *decent* leaders, they need Dalinars and Kaladins. Not Adolins. Not kind, good-heartened, hard-working men who are in charge merely because their birth’s status says they should. They need men other people will want to fight under and that’s not Adolin.
In every sense of the word, Adolin is completely inadequate when it comes to comparing himself to the greatest men of his time. Unfortunately for him, he stands so close to them, comparison is inevitable.
And that’s basically what Brandon recently confirmed: it is either Adolin accepts he is an inferior version of Dalinar or he finds himself another path for himself. Either way, it is clear Adolin doesn’t have the leadership skills Kaladin and Dalinar have displayed. Humanity will not unite behind him, but it will behind either Dalinar or Kaladin.
I don’t however think Adolin believes Kaladin makes no effort or he envies how effortless he makes it seem, I think he just realizes what *it* is which makes Kaladin such a great leader, he doesn’t have *it*. No amount of hard-work is ever going to fix it.
As for Kaladin, well, yes, he certainly is jealous of Adolin’s easy manners and smiles.
I agree it makes for an odd friendship, one I hope to read more of next book. I wish for the two of them to move pass their misconceptions and truly get to know each other. I also want someone to be loyal to Adolin, him only, not him because he is duty like it is the case with Bridge 4 and occasionally Kaladin.
@20 hammerlock
Good point. We do see in a Rysn interlude that fabrial soulcasters practice soulcasting things into scrap metal because soulcasting things into food if not done correctly is poisonous. There is a good chance that if Shallan attempted to soulcast food, she could do more harm than good there as well. Even Jasnah, a soulcasting pro, admits to having trouble soulcasting organics.
@21 Lisa
I wonder if it has to do with lightweaver’s artistic inclinations and that crytics like to see the patterns in the world around them. Would be very interesting to see how the other radiant orders react to the strata.
@22 EvilMonkey
I too am curious what the “finished product” Shallan will look like though it seems we will not see it for some time yet. WoB posted below shows that Hoid will continue to mentor her, and she still has a way to go
kari-no-sugata
…In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas– as if she’s fully in control, and they’re not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?
Brandon Sanderson
No.
kari-no-sugata
So, they still come and go as they want?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, she’s much more in control, but still has a way to go.
kari-no-sugata
Would Wit basically approve of what she’s done?
Brandon Sanderson
He would give her a “that’s a step forward, but you’re not there yet.”
Questioner
Will Shallan and Wit have a good mentor relationship.
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, they will. It will continue as you have seen it in the books so far.
@26 RogerPavelle
I also find it interesting that the illusion of Shallan that Hoid makes with her help is Shallan wearing clothing that Veil also wears. The illusion isn’t Shallan as she was dressed when she came to the shattered plains.
Regarding soulcasters, I believe the issue is they are so rare and of the ones they have, they usually at max can do three essences. Shallan remarks how Jasnah’s was unusual because it could do all 10 essences which is exceedingly rare, though we learn later the reason is because Jasnah is a radiant with that ability.
@27 David Goldfarb
Brandon has explained what mainly differentiates the gemstones and their uses is the color. It is a cognitive thing.
@29 Isilel
Yep, the heralds were all from Ashyn originally (except maybe Ash), WoB below
Willshaper Wallar
…Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline– You can’t nail me down on that one, because it’s possible that Ash was born after, but I don’t think so.
@31 I wouldn’t include Shallan in the Elhokar category of bad leaders. Even as a little girl she managed to provide leadership to her old brothers and keep them together. Her current struggles may be hampering her ability to lead effectively but she has innate ability.
I love me chapters with lots of Wit! Wit is where he needs to be, when he is needed. He doesn’t know before hand and has to deal with the situation on the spot. He has been there for Shallan since she was very young. I am really glad to know they will be together in future chapters!
Adolin has been functioning as a leader under Dalinar to acquire the knowledge needed to lead. He considers himself ill suited for that. Being the son of Dalinar is a two edged sword, he doesn’t like it but wants to make Dalinar proud.He would much rather be dueling!
As for Skar and Drehy, they have been assigned to Adolin since Narack, they might not have the reverence for him as they do for Kaladin, but they do respect him.
@31 Well..there is Shallan. techilacnlly you can say she is the one who is loyal to him. she IS the one who encouraged Adolin to reveal the truth of Sadeas, and to take his next step of breaking away from his father. She didn’t have to, but she did. that’s loyatly.
I love the slow burn Bromance between Adolin and Kaladin. They are both “lonely at the top” as commanders always are. They are opposites that show both another world view by being who they are at their best and worst.
This is my favorite Shallan chapter. I was blown away when she fractured with rotating faces. It was such a dramatic way to show what was happening to her emotionally. I’m not as impressed with “The girl who” story. As Witt pointed out, it is as changing as Shallan, different outcomes and meanings as it was used by different story tellers.
Shallan has the potential to be a more than passible leader, but she needs the training. Plus she has issues paying attention to her responsibility at times which is why her team languished on the vine for so long before she put them to work.
Elkohar probably never took his lessons seriously and was probably insecure as a child. Surrounded by greatness he felt he could never measure up. It wasn’t until he decided to try his own leadership style that he began to make progress.
For Adolin the standard he has to live up to is Dalinar. Remember he didn’t really earn his first command either. He just took it and led well afterwards. He still leads well. The problem is that Adolin has too much of Evi in him to fit Dalinar mold. My point wasn’t that Adolin is just an ok leader while Kal and Dalinar are exceptional, although I won’t argue if others feel that way. My point was that you can be exceptional even if your leadership style doesn’t look like Kaladin or Dalinar. Just because the style Adolin has does not look traditional does not limit its effectiveness. The instances I brought up are not examples of good leadership, they are examples of great leadership. Skar and Drehy would back Kaladin over Adolin no question. But they’d back Adolin over damn near anyone else and he’s only had them for a short while. Kaladin is better at it, no one is arguing otherwise. But Adolin is not lacking by as much as he perhaps thinks he is.
Let’s go back to Elkohar. He was given a leadership position that he had not earned, as was Gavilar and Dalinar before him and Adolin gets now. But just because you’re given command is no guarantee that you’ll be respected in your role. Elkohar did not earn respect and did not get it. Kaladin, a former bridgeman, was straight up ignoring summons from him before Narak. Kaladin is the last person to accept a weak commander. If Adolin has gained Kaladin’s trust, enough so that he has no issues lending one of his squad leaders out to him on a semi-permanent basis, then he cannot be garbage at the task right?
I happen to like the Hoid mentorship program in Shallan’s case. Of all the people in the main cast and first Radiants, Shallan is the most unfinished product. Kaladin came fully formed, complete with calluses and scar tissue. Jasnah has been at this Radiant thing the longest. Szeth and Dalinar are grown ass men. Lyft has been shaped by both a lifetime on the streets and the Nightwatcher and while she has much more to learn she at least knows who she is already. Luckily she is receptive to influence. Unfortunately she takes that a bit too far at times. See Veil/Tyn and Brightness/Jasnah. Hoid/Shallan is a much better pairing. So, if she comes up with other personalities, who does she model them after? Will she get a Lyft or Malata analog?
#37, @EvilMonkey: if Shallan makes a new persona, you have convinced me it will be a Hoid impersonator. They are Connected in the Cosmere sense now, I think. (She amplified his Lightweaving, they’re both Lightweavers in the Radiant sense.) She might even get insights into him that no one younger than the Vessels has any more, through that Connection.
We’ve been talking about good vs. bad chapters. It occurs to me that there has not (in my opinion) been a clunky Hoid chapter throughout the entire Cosmere corpus. I think this might be that he’s one of the oldest characters Sanderson conceived and fun for him to write.
I kinda like the idea of Hoid being Brandon’s safety valve. Then again I like Hoid. For those of us who dislike our first Worldhopper, I’m not sure how well the chapters resonate with them.
@39, @40, I like to think that Hoid being a troll in the first book, (and his cameo apperances before) were just a wink and a nod to one of his oldest characters. Thing is, he has grown and shown more introspective with his actual interactions with our Radiants. When he isn’t being a troll, he comes off as mysterious and wise, which make him even more intriguing. I liked when he fist showed up for the hunt, but I really loved him when he first met Kaladin on the plaeatu. it’s there where you can really see Sanderson’s writing philosophies really sink through, that of a story teller.
@33: I will admit I hesitated in putting Shallan up there with the bad leaders. Unlike Elhokar, she is an 18 years old teenager who never had any training in leadership nor much experience with it. In the end, I chose to write her name because, in the Kholinar arc, she makes several key mistakes characters I perceive as real good leaders would have never made, even without specific training.
For instance, she does not lead at all. She is, theoretically, the leader of her group of spies, but she does not communicate with them, she doesn’t utilize them to their optimum capacities and she strives to make her infiltration be a “Veil only” show. In other words, she doesn’t bother with her team unless she has a specific need for her team preferring to work alone as Veil and not to discuss her plans nor her moves to anyone.
Hence, Shallan proved to be a very inefficient and poor leader, but yes, she remains a young girl still having the possibility to improve on her mistakes. Is she, however, a natural leader? Probably not, but I noted she did however earned the trust and the loyalty of her group of spies which is much more than Adolin achieved on his own.
@34: I think Adolin thinking he is ill-suited to be a leader indicates he never wanted to be one, deep down. He is basically forced to walk on a path that isn’t is. Kind of the anti-Radiant… He is on a journey, but it is an imposed journey, it is ill-suited for him, so it isn’t working out for him.
@35: I agree Shallan is basically the only person who’s probably loyal to Adolin. Everyone else, however, is either loyal to Kaladin or Dalinar.
@36: For me, the difference in between Kaladin and Adolin is Kaladin accepts he will be lonely at the top whereas Adolin just doesn’t want to be there in the first place. Adolin values friendship and human relationships too much to sacrifice them to the need for him to be a leader. He sees being a leader as a burden he wishes he didn’t have to bear whereas Kaladin cannot help himself but wanting to be in charge.
Adolin is not Dalinar, but Dalinar wants him to be him.
@37: I do not disagree with you here. In fact, I think you bring along some good points. I, however, couldn’t help but note, among Dalinar, Kaladin, and Adolin, Adolin is the only one who hasn’t managed to win people’s loyalties. Dalinar, no matter the means he employed, no matter how much I disapprove of them, did win the loyalty of the Kholin armies and its Highlords. Kaladin merely had to spend a few moments with the Tower Guards to win their loyalty and trust. Adolin has never achieved the same: he would have gotten the Tower Guards and Azure to follow him, had he reveal himself, but they would have done it out of obligation, not because they actually want to.
And, so far, this has marked the difference between the three characters. I agree they all have their leadership styles. I agree Adolin has too much of Evi in him for Dalinar’s ways to be effective. I, however, can’t deny both Dalinar and Kaladin won the loyalty and the trust of their people. Adolin only leads the Kholin armies because Dalinar put him in charge. They obey him because Dalinar told them to, not because they genuinely want to follow him nor out of any loyalty towards the son of the Blackthorn.
So whatever leadership style Adolin truly owns, it hasn’t allowed him to earn himself real allies, people who want to follow his lead. He’s got a bunch of people who like him, but let’s not kid ourselves and think Skar, Drehy or Kaladin prioritize Adolin in any manner. He’s somewhere on the list, but he isn’t near the top of it.
Kaladin trusts Adolin, but is he loyal to him? Seems to me Kaladin is loyal to Dalinar, not Adolin. He likes Adolin, he respects his knowledge and his experience, but he is not one of theirs. He’s not part of the group. He is not Bridge 4. Or a Parshendi. Or a Tower Guard. Or Dalinar.
Hence, it is not surprising Adolin noticed how he may have been put in charge, but he still isn’t the one others look up too to take leadership. Kaladin is.
All this talk about leadership and leadership styles reminds me of a quote. “Some are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them.” I can’t help but think that this might be relevant here.
@@@@@ Gepeto
All I can say to add to this is Adolin has had no real need to date to prove one way or the other whether his brand of leadership is on par with the greatest. I think that he has that potential and that we’ve seen evidence of it in the text. But to this point what action has he been in where he absolutely needs it? Dalinar had to unify a country with essentially one other highprince ally. Kaladin had to lead or die multiple times. But in both cases they developed their gifts for leadership through a lot of hard work and training. We haven’t seen some of their earlier missteps on the path to mastery. They lead in their sleep now, but it wasn’t always so.
Now Adolin’s life hasn’t been in danger in a real sense like in ever. Protected by the aura of the Blackthorn first and then later in impenetrable magical armor later, born into a nation mostly unified, 5th in line for the throne, even fighting Parshendi holding no real challenge, at least before the Everstorm. It took Dalinar thinking he was crazy for him to start training his son in martial leadership. But all throughout OB he has answered the call whenever a leadership moment arose. Telling Shallan to stop ignoring her men and training her in the use of her Patternblade. Picking up Kaladin’s shattered pieces and keeping him functioning. Fighting the Thunderclasts when many would have run, even giving it up to someone more capable as well as coming up with the strategy to hamper it on the fly. And we all know what happened at the battle of Narak. Even questioning and challenging Dalinar was the right decision from a leadership standpoint despite him being wrong. He’s passed every test set before him, why would I think he couldn’t handle more at need?
@44: Kaladin hasn’t always led within his sleep? I tend to think he did… He was the youngest squadleader within Amaram’s army. Everywhere he goes, he takes up the leadership whether he was needed or not. It just… happens. So no, I don’t think Kaladin ever put much effort into it, it comes to him nearly effortlessly. Take this chapter. What did he do which required such abnormal work to earn the loyalty of the Tower Guard and Azure? Not much, he just took command when he needed to. He just… attracts people. He’s just the kind of man people genuinely want to follow. It’s… natural for him.
For the rest, why do I think Adolin is not ready for the rest? Because this path, leadership, is the path Dalinar put him onto. It isn’t *his*. It is *Dalinar’s*. And as long as Adolin will allow external people defining who he is and which path he should walk on, I believe he will be found lacking. So why is he not ready? Because he is *not* Dalinar and he will never be Dalinar. So long as he tries to be Dalinar the Second, he will not be ready.
Sure, he may do a few good things, but it will never be enough to be a *real* leader. It will never be enough to earn the loyalty of people. Adolin may have done well with Kaladin’s breaking down, but he will never earn people’s loyalty and trust until he starts becoming his own person. And that, it may never happen. We’ll have to RAFO.
Why is it important? Because when facing a Desolation, the people will want to follow a leader they trust, they respect, not a man they just *like*. And Adolin is not this man. He will never be this man. He will always be the man they *like*, but not the one they fight for, unless being ordered to do so by the one they *really* fight for. And that’s not Adolin. So leadership wise, he failed at making people be his own people.
If he was such a good leader from birth then why was his childhood within Heartstone so difficult? Why couldn’t he keep the loyalty and respect of all those farmboys wishing for glory and recognition? While it is certainly true that he was a prodigy with a spear nearly from the moment he picked it up, he didn’t really start attracting people until he proved himself to be excellent. Sure he has a gift for it, but gifts can be squandered as easily as they can be nourished if one doesn’t put the work in. After Tien died Kaladin practiced himself nearly to death to gain the proficiency needed to prevent another Tien.
As for the rest, we may just have to disagree. I’ll give you that if Adolin’s aim is to become Blackthorn 2.0 then of course he will fall short of true leadership. Do you think he hasn’t realized that by now? I’d argue that he has been differentiating himself from his father’s legacy since the Shadesmar Expedition. With Shallan’s help he has been realizing that he can be his own man. It shows itself in numerous ways, some you’ve even applauded him for, like his new public affection thing.
As far as what men will follow in an Apocalypse, I’m confident that they will follow the man who stands up when others would rather run away. They’ll fight for someone they hate if they are competent and their actions keep others alive. They won’t fight for or respect someone they like if they aren’t competent or inspire confidence. Adolin is not just likeable though, he is proving himself, action by action, decision by decision, that he is competent, keeps his head in battle and does not freeze or leave troops under his command without direction. If he were just an empty suit then Kaladin at the very least would call him out like he calls Elkohar out. He does not, Adolin won him over. I think the bar you set for your leadership standard is too high. In a wartime situation men look to someone who at least looks like they know what they’re doing. In a Desolation I imagine it to be both harder because the degree of fear that needs to be overcome is higher, and easier because when one is falling off a cliff they’ll grasp at any straw they can see to keep from falling. I would not be stumping so hard for Adolin if I didn’t think he had the characteristics necessary to be a leader I would follow.
I actually love art hat has a function. To me the most beautiful things are ones that elegantly/efficiently combine aesthestics and a function that it does well. I don’t always care for things that are strictly ornamental (although sometimes, especially in the case of certain sculpture/paintings, the beauty is itself sufficient).
If I recall, I was reading this part right around the time I saw The Last Jedi, and so I was getting poignant meditations on failure from multiple directions. This is one of my favorite parts of the book.
@46: In Heartstone, Kaladin was just a kid and one of high rank surrounded by kids of a lower one. They resented him for not being seen working and being allowed to leisure as much as he did. Granted, once he starts to work very hard (and I don’t mean to infer Kaladin did not work hard), leadership came easily. No amount of hard training would have made him squadleader at 19 if he didn’t have leadership in his blood from the start. There is however no denying Kaladin earned everything he ever achieved.
As for Adolin, well, according to Brandon, no, he hasn’t realized he cannot be Blacktorn 2.0, yet. Brandon highlighted this as being Adolin’s major dilemma for the upcoming years. He said Adolin was very confused right now and did not know the man he wanted to be. He did not know if he wants to be an inferior version of Dalinar or someone else following a different path. Hence, based on those words, I must argue that no, Adolin doesn’t know what he can and cannot do just as he doesn’t know what he really wants. This dilemma is not done yet, Brandon implied it would last for a while. So no, the conversation with Shallan hasn’t settled it, just like Shallan did not solve her problems because she talked to Hoid.
Here is the nice WoB:
For the rest, maybe I am wrong. All I can say is I genuinely do not see Adolin as the man behind which humanity will ally itself nor the man to lead the war effort. I just do not think he is the right person for it even if he may be pushed towards it. It could be the bar I am putting on leadership is too high, I do not disagree it may be the case, but my gut feeling is telling me Adolin’s fear of inadequacy aren’t completely ill-founded.
Granted, my gut feeling isn’t a particularly strong argument, so I respectfully agree to disagree with you and to keep on reading. I’d love for Adolin to be successful at leadership and ruling by being his own person, but I keep feeling his path is elsewhere.
Kaladin still had to work hard to gain Bridge Four’s trust, though. Remember, his first attempts to get them to like him didn’t work at first. The only reason he got Rock and Teft was because he saved Rock’s life, and the honor bound Horneater felt like he owed him a little. Kal just kept on pestering Teft that got the old man’s solider instincts out. That is as much as hard work as say, Adolin going out to talk and become popular with the men. that’s not really natural talent, that’s still hard work. The only reason kal got the trust of the parshmen and the Wall Guard much faster was because the parshmen were desperate for anything, and the wall guard…i’m not sure, honestly, that was weird how they instinatly latched on to them.
I’ve commented before that the Windrunners are right next to the Bondsmiths in the Radiant diagram. I suspect that leaderly charisma is literally a supernatural power of both orders. We also know from elsewhere in the Cosmere that just carrying a lot of Investiture can make someone automatically attractive, fascinating, and charming. (Think of the Returned, or Elantrians. Actually the Elantrians apparently are the local version of Returned.)
Why does an effective leader have to be someone who is worshiped by his followers? Can’t he just get everyone doing what they should be doing to do whatever needs to be achieved without being the center of everyone’s attention? Adolin is more likely to be a different kind of leader who encourages others to do a good job without having to give orders constantly because they think they can’t do anything without his approval (like Perrin who dislikes that everyone suddenly needs him to tell them what to do when they could do it without a leader before).
@49: Oh yes, all true. I apologize if I made it sound as if Kaladin never worked to earn the loyalty of his people. He did. It’s just Kaladin has the advantage of natural charisma. He works hard, he is no slacker, but he still usually comes across as the one man others genuinely want to follow. Like the Tower Guards. He earned their loyalty and trust very quickly. Bridge 4, I agree, took considerably more effort, but the situation was also direr. They were all sent to die, it took quite a feat of leadership to get them to hope for a future.
Also, as I said, Adolin doesn’t struggle to get people to like him. He does this quite effortlessly, but see the thing is… they just *like* him. They don’t necessarily view him as someone to follow whereas with Kaladin, people often aren’t sure if they like him, but they sure want to follow him.
@50: Yeah. I think this is a good theory.
@51: I did not use the word “worship”, but I used the word “loyalty”. IMHO, a good leader is one who gets people to want to follow him, who’s able to earn his followers’ loyalty and Adolin, so far, hasn’t. He may command the Kholin army, but its loyalties go to Dalinar, not him. He may be the Highprince Kholin, but the Highlords loyalties will still go to Dalinar. All will obey and follow him because Dalinar has told them to, not because they trust and believe in Adolin as a leader.
I am unsure what kind of leader Adolin will end up being if he ends up as a leader at all. I just worry at seeing the people who technically follow him having their loyalties not to him, but to his father. The Kholin armies, the Highlords are loyal to Dalinar. Bridge 4, Skar, Drehy are loyal to Kaladin first, then Dalinar. Apart from Renarin and perhaps Shallan, who’s loyal to Adolin? Who did he manage to genuinely want to follow his lead? Currently, no one and I do think this is exactly what Adolin has in mind in this chapter when he is jealous of Kaladin. He got a bunch of lighteyes to fight for them, not because he and Elhokar won their loyalties, more because they revealed their identities… His name got his followers, not his own self. And that’s exactly where Adolin’s big dilemma starts: “Who is he if not just a name and the heir of a near-God?”.
Adolin recognizing that he has the option of being a different man than his father is a significant first step in a journey with an uncertain destination. Before, he thought that his only path lay in becoming Blackthorn 2.0.
As far as inspiring loyalty and all that, just look at the circumstances and what Adolin is supposed to contribute. Dalinar has already built his army. Kaladin has already drawn his followers. Their tasks were much harder than what Adolin has to do and they had the skills to accomplish their tasks. All true. By that same token, the leg work has already been done. Adolin can safely be given a force of however many men and go do damage. It doesn’t matter who their first loyalty is to, as long as they trust Adolin enough to follow his orders then the force he leads will be fine and have a decent chance of effectiveness against the enemies put in front of him. Birgit has it right. Adolin is a different breed than the others and that’s ok. In a sense, the building of loyalties is only important when gathering the forces, not leading them. Now if Adolin wanted to break from his father’s army and create a force opposed to it then the sort of loyalty Kaladin inspires would be a handy tool. If he isn’t trying to do that then he doesn’t really need that tool. If he wants to be a recruiting tool then I think he’d make a great one. See, the thing about competent, well-trained armies, is that once the force has been built, loyalty to the commander of that element becomes a given. The commander must earn the trust of those he leads but has their loyalty coming in. That loyalty can be lost in a number of ways but Adolin does not show the characteristics of someone who would lose someone’s loyalty.
If Ender Wiggin were to judge the two, who do you think he’d say would make the better commander? Adolin with his solid battle tactics and his empathy or Kaladin with his personal excellence and gift for motivating others to become the best versions of themselves?
I think the argument over the ” great leader” is fine, but an army is not only the leader. As BenW comments, Adolin has had greatness thrust upon him. He has to lead regardless of desire or aptitude. However, he has a great many talents including tactics and strategy. His best place may well be at the “great leader’s” side.
He wanted to be a duelist. That is a stand alone position. Only birth and necessity place him in command of an army but he stepped up and handled it. He did turn down the kingship which is way more than the Adolin in WoK or WoR could have done.
As a commander, I see Adolin as the sort of person Amaram should have been. If Amaram had been what he pretended to be: but Amaram thought he could/should be the great leader and justified his actions to reach that goal. I can’t see Adolin ever taking that turn. I can absolutely see him following and advising Kaladin. And I can see Kaladin listening to and valuing his insight.
@53: I think Ender Wiggin would choose Kaladin as the best commander as he is the one able to build an army from scratch. Adolin is merely told to lead an army loyal to other men. Kaladin has good strategies too, however, he struggles with the reality of war, being more focus on having everyone survive than in winning. personally think if Adolin wants to grow into his own person, he’ll
As for Adolin recognizing he has other options, well, Brandon more or less said he hasn’t, yet. He knows there is a conflict inside himself, but he is unsure as to what he wants to do with it. He may very well keep on walking onto the path his father opened for him, preferring the status quo even if it will lead to a life of non-satisfaction and feelings of uselessness. Truth is, most people will stick to the path opened to them, very few will try to build on their own. Hence, Adolin doesn’t currently know and I suspect this lack of knowledge is precisely what prevented him from being chosen by the sprens who came to turn his family into Radiants. Brandon, however, RAFOed this question, so we’ll have to keep on reading.
Also, did Adolin win the trust of his soldiers? All I can see is a young man asked to lead, but who hasn’t managed to loyalty, trust nor respect out of the men he commands. I do not think many see Adolin as the man they want to follow into the Desolation. Why do I see it as a problem? Because Adolin just isn’t the man soldiers, commoners and people want to rally behind in the Desolation. It isn’t him they want, they want Dalinar Kholin, the man who never lost a battle, not his foppish son still lacking a worthy victory to his track road. He’s unfortunately asked to be this man and that, I suspect, will create a clash.
All this to say, in this chapter, I did feel Adolin’s jealousy towards Kaladin’s leadership is not imaginary. I do think Adolin is sensing the beginning of the clash which will open inside him: on one side, there is his father’s path, represented by Kaladin, and on the other… a tumbleweed bouncing into the dry desert, because he has no idea what else there is for him. His feelings of inadequacy aren’t the fancies of a young man unable to see he’s got everything going on for him, I think they are real. I think Adolin is inadequate in the role he has been asked to fulfill, not enough to be another Elhokar, but enough to know it isn’t working as it should be working.
@54: Adolin viewed Amaram as the “true soldier”, an ideal to achieve he associates with his father. I sincerely doubt the advising position or the right-hand man role are suitable as both seem to be the by-product of the Dalinar’s journey. All of those options: soldiers, leader, ruler, general, warrior, they come from the Dalinar path, each one of them leads to Adolin being the inferior version of Dalinar as he’ll never be as good as his father within any of those.
I would also point out WoK and WoR Adolin had stomach cramps over the idea of becoming Highprince whereas OB Adolin accepts the title (though he probably did it because the alternative was King). He never wanted it, so I don’t think WoK nor WoR Adolin would have accepted it either, but he may have had a harder time finding a convenient excuse.
Oddly enough, Brandon said Adolin rejecting the Alethi crown was foolhardy, whatever he meant by this.
@55 Gepeto
Do you have a WoB for the foolhardy comment
@56: Yes. I do. But it came from private sources, so I am reluctant to share it within its entirety.
Any chance we may get a return of the Viviena/Siri dynamic is Stormlight just with different personalities?
@Gepeto: “[Kaladin] earned [the Wall Guard’s] loyalty and trust very quickly. Bridge 4, I agree, took considerably more effort, but the situation was also direr. They were all sent to die, it took quite a feat of leadership to get them to hope for a future.” Quite correct.
I wonder if it’s a conscious irony on Brandon’s part that essentially 100% of the Wall Guard are now dead. (I doubt that Azure and Kaladin are the only survivors, but there can’t be that many.) On the other hand, Bridge Four mostly survived, with reasonable losses for a military unit fighting in a genocidal war.
Hmm … Dalinar had his elites wiped out to the last man, just before the Rift, with himself as sole survivor of that battle. (Actually both sides were wiped out, with Dalinar as sole survivor!) Adolin and Dalinar came very close to the same situation after Sadeas betrayed them, only the intervention of a covert Radiant saving even part of their army. Very few of Eshonai’s Listener army survived, down to and including herself. Every military-serving Listener may actually have died. (Rlain was espionage, in my head, not military.) Is the Stormlight Archive going to be a series of tragic last stands?
@59 Carl
Yes, I think it likely will. Not that it will only be that, but I expect several more. I think the overall scenario (end of the world) lends itself to climactic battles – with several defeats on both sides that will be catastrophic as each side pulls off surprises and reveals “new” powers (because one side, at least, has forgotten them and it appears there are also truly new things being developed). Now, I was about to combine that with the Thrill that lends itself to people fighting well beyond the point they should have/would normally have retreated (see Jah Kaved civil war), but now that it is captured… I wonder if what that means for the future of battles… I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up trapping a couple more Unmade during the series – but that they all get released for the final climax… Mainly because I see trapping them as not a final solution (see Odium being trapped in the Rosharan system). I think there will be a different, final solution. Some may be destroyed, some may be reformed or transformed or restored some how.
@58: What do you mean?
@59: The Wall Guard had for purposes to put Kaladin in a state where he is unable to differentiate the “us” from the “them”. They were purely accessory and hence they could die whereas Brigde 4 certainly has a bigger role within the narrative. Another side purpose of the Wall Guard was for Kaladin to get acquainted with lower ranked lighteyes and witnessed their prejudices against the upper ranks (mostly the middlers) which forced him to confront his own and to admit how far he has progressed.
Dalinar’s elites weren’t wiped out: not all of them came with him on this faithful day. Kadash was still very alive and took an active part in the burning of the Rift. I don’t thinkt the narrative states how many of Dalinar’s former elites were left aftert the Rift, but Kadash being alive makes me think he wasn’t alone. Afterwards, the unit was probably disbanded.
Considering the fact a Desolation is about to strike, I think we can expect armies to be wiped out and to find our characters as sole survivors of many fights. Hence, I definitely expect other “last stands”. So far, we’ve got: Dalinar against the Chasmfiend, Dalinar/Adolin at the Tower, Kaladin against the Chasmfiend, Kaladin against Moash and friends, Dalinar/Adolin against Szeth, Dalinar against Odium, Kaladin against Amaram, Adolin against the Thunderclast, last stands tend to read in a heroic manner and Brandon Sanderson writes heroic fantasy.
So long live to the last stands! Some of those are among my favorite scenes in the series. Give me some heroic last stands, I honestly love those even when they fail.
@50 Carl
In the case of the Returned, it was what the person idolized or thought they did because of society playing a part in the back of their mind that caused them to manifest as a returned in such larger proportions. There were returned that came back looking elderly, or very young (child-like). So the investiture itself does not automatically make you attractive or charming. It altered their body in the manner in which they thought to themselves as ideal.
@58 BenW
In a way we already did with Viviena and Adolin. Not sure if it will continue as she went off by herself to the horneater peaks. Maybe they will run into each other again and continue that dynamic.
@Gepeto Adolin had stomach cramps of becoming high prince not because he didn’t think he was ready, but because he thought he pushed his father into a incredibly rash and dangerous decision. Also it doesn’t relaly matter at this point where the “loyalties” of the armies are in regards to listening to Adolin. Unless he’s betrays Dalinar, something i don’t think he will ever really do, or tries to kill Kal, again, not very likely, there’s really no reason for them to question Adolin. he’s proven himself tenfold on leading the armies, Daliniar has basically entrusted his army to Adolin so many times that they will listen to him just as much as they do to Daliniar, remember, that was what Dalinar was working on with Adolin when he decided to abicate, he was making sure that Adolin knew how to lead and there would be a easy transition. Rember, they have been at war for 7 years, and Adolin has been the second in command to Dalinar for all of that time. that’s plenty of time for Adolin to gain the trust of the troops to lead them. ANd for the other armies…well their high princes got people like Jasnah to be concerned about.
@63: Adolin clearly voices his unease at becoming Highprince, not just because he pushed his father towards it, but also because he doesn’t agree he is ready. And, in light of Oathbringer, it is highly likely he never wanted it in the first place, but was unable to realize it.
Loyalties of the armies do matter because the soldiers will be asked to follow Adolin into a Desolation. They will be asked to obey his command on the battlefield as Dalinar retired himself from battle. As we discussed just a few posts ahead, we can expect armies to be wiped out, destroyed as the war increases in intensity.
Do we really believe the Alethi soldiers will readily follow Adolin into the battle when Dalinar and Kaladin are standing not too far from him? They already lost their lands, their country, their princedoms, are they really going to rally behind Dalinar’s son when Dalinar is *still* available? Why would they do this? Because Dalinar told them to? They’ll want the man who never faced defeat, not the man who lost Kholinar.
I say, we may end up in a situation where the wrong man is asked to lead the war effort as no matter what his qualities might be, Adolin just isn’t the man the people want to follow and when it’ll come to the Desolation, those loyalties will matter.
And Adolin has proven himself? When? On the Shattered Plains? No one treated it as a war but Dalinar because it never really was “warfare”. It was more hunting with a few enemies to kill along the way. At Narack? Literally no one remembers he saves the day as all eyes where on Kaladin defeating Szeth and those who do remember probably think the order came from Dalinar. So where else? Where are Adolin’s great victories, big enough to earn himself some respect and loyalty?
He has none. Just being told you are in charge and actually being in charge often are two different things. When the death toll increases, when it becomes obvious Adolin is *not* a Radiant and thus cannot save the day, when the individual soldiers will *really* fear for their life, then they will care about who leads them. They will care it is *just* the son of a great man and not the great man himself or the inspiring heroic Windrunner.
And I foresee this will be a problem just as I think Adolin’s feelings, in this chapter, aren’t unfounded.
Well you mentioned the idea that maybe Adolin does NOT want to be a leader but is doing it because he feels it’s his duty. That made me think of the hints we have gotten hints that Renarin wants to be leader, but has made peace with his situation for a variety of reasons. So I wondered “is THAT where this is going or am I reading to much into things?”
@65: I honestly have no idea where this is going. I merely pointed out I felt Adolin’s lack of faith in his leadership abilities may not be totally unfounded and it may be he isn’t the right man for the duty his father placed on him.
In the light of your comments, with respect to Vivenna and Siri, and your questioning on whether or not we’ll get to read this dynamic, again, well, it did cross my mind we may. It did cross my mind we could read something similar, even if different, with the Adolin/Renarin dynamic. I will not lie and I will admit I have been wanting to see the brothers’ roles reversing, at some point, not completely, but in parts. I really loved the scene where Renarin orders Adolin to step back and to let *him* handle the monster. That was amazing, so I am totally up for more of that.
@66 One thing’s for sure. Their relationship is a LOT healthier then that of Dalinar and Galivar’s was. But that’s kind of a low bar to clear
Popularity and competence are two different things. People may want to follow the popular hero, but it could be better for them to follow the man who just does his job well without being cheered for it all the time instead of the charismatic leader who is so used to being in charge that he won’t listen to advice from other people who know better than him how to deal with a new problem. Radiants have an advantage as fighters, but that doesn’t automatically make them good leaders (Shallan is a good example). Military cultures like the Alethi often expect a leader to lead from the front, but that is not the only way. A general who keeps an overview of the battle from a distance can be more effective than someone who doesn’t really know what is going on because he is too busy fighting.
#62, @Scáth:
You know WOBs better than that. In the Warbreaker annotations Brandon says the exact opposite. Note also that having lots of Breath also makes one attract the eye, etc. Contrast to Drabs, who (as Vivenna is caught by) become near-invisible unless you look for them.
@67: Gavilar and Dalinar had in common the same compulsion to use people around them to further their goals. Gavilar’s goals were selfish ones disguised as benevolent ones whereas Dalinar’s are benevolent ones disguised as selfish ones. Still, they exhbit the same behavior (confirmed by WoB).
I always found the Dalinar was to Gavilar what Adolin now is to him. A beloved tool. There is love, but in both cases the relationship has been twisted by hero-worshiping, need and expectations.
Adolin and Renarin have a much healthier relationship in the sense neither think of the other as a tool nor are they trying to use the other to further personal goals. They aren’t trying to make each other into people they are not even if both have their blind spots. It has, however, been a one-sided relationship, one where Adolin supports Renarin and where Renarin asks for support. The fact Adolin may, someday, need support seems to have evade *both* brothers which is why I love the Thunderclast scenes so much. It shows their relationship doesn’t have to constantly be about the “big supporting brother” and the “weak demanding one”, it can be about two brothers trying to support each other.
Adolin has always encouraged Renarin to seek his own path. Now Renarin has found his, I think it would be sweet if he were to encourage his brother to find his or, at the very least, make him realize the path Dalinar forced on him isn’t the right one. After all, Renarin chafed for a lifetime against the path pushed on him by others only to realize he actually wanted it. He may be well-placed to help his brother find his own way, free of pressure.
@68: I don’t necessarily disagree, but do we really consider Dalinar and Kaladin to be the “popular leaders who surf on their reputations and have stopped listening to advise”? Do we really believe both aren’t the right people to lead the war effort? That Adolin is somewhat better then they at it? Or that Adolin’s lack of significant victories isn’t going to make soldiers prefer another leader? One who always wins. One who never loses. They are Alethi after all and Adolin simply doesn’t have enough of a track record to have the armies respect him as much as they respect Dalinar and also Kaladin for being a hero. They will follow a charismatic young inexperienced leader if they believe he’ll lead them to victory (Gavilar), but that’s not Adolin. He is not charismatic. He’s just… nice.
I agree a good leader often stays in the back to oversee the battle, but that’s not Adolin. Adolin is foolhardy, Adolin rushes into the battle and will be one the front lines whether he should be there or not. He isn’t going to take a step back just because he isn’t a Radiant. Adolin is the guy who thought he could fight a Thunderclast all by himself.
He’s not a bad leader, he may even be a good one, he’s certainly better than both Elhokar and Shallan, but my point remains I do not think he is the one they need right now.
I just do not see humanity rallying behind Adolin’s military leadership. I just do not believe he’s a better choice than either Dalinar or Kaladin.
@65 BenW
That is an interesting thought. That Renarin and Adolin’s insecurities could mirror each other as one gains confidence in himself (Renarin) while the other begins to lose confidence in himself (Adolin) in leadership roles.
@69 Carl
Could you post the quote? Or point out which chapter? I am always eager to learn new things. I was referring to specifically the Returned in that the reason why Lightsong and Blushweaver looked the way they were vs the (honestly I forget her name) the returned that was an elderly woman, or the returned (forget his name too) that looked like a child. That when they returned, what in their mind was the ideal was how their body reflected. So all the latest Returns for the most part due to how society plays on their mind ended up huge, with “perfect” shapes because that is what their unconscious mind thought what the ideal would be. Now my assumption regarding the rest is because biochromatic breath brightens the colors around you, so you are going to attract eyes, and Drabs do not register to life sense due to their reduced level of investiture. But again, if you could point me in the right direction, I would love to learn more.
Gepeto:
I have to say that I thoroughly disagree with you about Adolin’s potential as a general. First of all it is not the matter of “there can only be one” or, as in your argument, two. They will need _many_ good generals to have any hope of survival. And Jasnah would need somebody whom she can absolutely trust as the Highprince of War and/or the leader of Kholin forces.
Second, Dalinar can maybe determine grand strategy, but he no longer has time for day-to-day nitty gritty of generalship, nor will he be available in the field. As his own flashbacks show, it is one thing to be an inspirational warrior, who is yes, respected and followed in the heat of battle, and quite another dealing with the 80 – 90% of what it means to be a general – organization, planning, etc. All the things that Dalinar only learned to do properly once Gavilar stepped back from military pursuits and devoted himself to civil administration. Adolin is already ahead of his father there and Renarin might be a big help to him too, but I don’t think that his little brother has what it takes to be a general himself, rather than an advisor to one and a Radiant on the scene, should one be required.
And let me point out that Kaladin is not currently and likely never will be able to do it on any kind of long-term basis. Specifically _because_ he is one of the few Radiants and a hero who is nearly always off on solo or small team missions. Even as Captain, we have seen that he was constantly neglecting his day-to day duties, so that Teft, Sigzil, etc. had to fill in on pretty ad-hoc basis, and I am personally surprised that his command didn’t suffer severe problems, given that they were lacking administrative staff and proper organization. Also, I am not sure that Kaladin would be able to ever achieve the necessary detachment or gain the proper grasp of strategy. The other 2 current Windrunners aren’t the stuff of generals either.
I am curious about Vivenna’s leadership potential, though – she sure showed herself to be very competent as a commander of the Wall Guard, despite not having a clue about what she was truly facing and she seems tired of leaving things unfinished. Will her being a worldhopper stop Sanderson from using her more in SA, though?The Thaylen Queen is another promising leadership prospect, but she is not a soldier.
Speaking of soldiers loyalty to Adolin – that’s one of the things that frustrated me about Oathbringer as a book – we hardly saw him interacting with normal people, including Kholin forces. We just don’t know how they see him, like, at all, particularly given that the majority of veteran soldiers died at the Tower. It is entirely plausible that he’d be able to earn their loyalty, since Dalinar is now going to keep his distance. Also, while people are awed by the Radiants, they may justly feel that a “normal” leader is going to be better at understanding them and taking care of them.
Finally, it seems to me, and forgive me if I am wrong, that you suggest that Adolin should not be forced into a position that he has been trained for and that he is good at, that he should have the space to find himself. And yes, in normal circumstances, absolutely, but they are living during an apocalypse. It is fair to say that almost nobody is doing what they would have wished to do, if they had been free to chose. It is tough, but everybody needs to pitch in. Not to mention that even in normal circumstances the way their society is structured limits opportunities.
@73: Isilel, check the WoB I posted above in one of my answers for EvilMonkey. This is a fresh and new one inside which Brandon states Adolin currently was in a confused state of mind as he wasn’t sure who he wanted to be. Was he going to stick in being an “inferior version of Dalinar” (Brandon’s own words, not mine) or was he going to try a new path? Wsa he going to break away from his father’s influence to grow into his own person or was he going to remain a crowd pleased trying to be what is expected of him? Broader implications of the WoB could be: “Is Adolin going to prefer the status quo even if it means he’ll never go on a the right journey or is he going to take a leap to make it onto an unsuspected path?”. Granted, Brandon RAFOed whether or not this WoB had anything to do as to why Adolin was left out when his family was turned into Radiants. So all arguments are welcome here.
Brandon also highlighted this as being Adolin’s upcomong trial for the next years as settling this question would be crucial to him.
In lights of this WoB, yes, I did wonder about which choice Adolin would ultimately make (Brandon was adamant Adolin hasn’t chosen yet, so all options are currently on the table). I find it is easy to make the argument the “Dalinar path” implies being exactly who everyone else in this thread is arguing is perfectly suitable for Adolin: a Highprince and a military general as this is the path Dalinar put him onto since early childhood. Brandon, however, did state shall Adolin make this choice, he’d have to agree in being nothing more than an “inferior version of his father” which I interpret as meaning shall Adolin keep on trying to be what is expected of him, he’ll never fully succeed. Hence, yes, he’ll be a “decent leader”, which I have agreed he was, but he’ll never be as good as his father.
Therefore while, yes, Adolin is “good” at this whole “Dalinar the Second” path, I have personally grown increasingly convinced it isn’t the *right* one for him. I have come to believe his insecurities next to his real capacities existed to highlight the conflict brewing in him about who he truly is versus who he is asked to be. Even if Adolin himself can’t really put words on it, I still believe those passages serve to present the existence of this dilemma.
It doesn’t really matter who ultimately takes the leadership of Alethkar military effort, I am just not convinced Adolin is the *right* person for it even if he appears perfect for the job, upon first glance.
In other words, I think Adolin’s real path, his real journey, the one which will lead him to revive Maya, isn’t to be a military general nor a soldier. I think those are the jobs he was told he was going to occupy as he grows up but, much like Kaladin, the path his father put him on isn’t the right one.
We tend to forget Lirin pushed Kaladin towards surgery, much like Dalinar pushed Adolin towards the military.
We tend to forget Kaladin was raised since childhood to be a surgeon, much like Adolin was raised since childhood to be a Highprince and a soldier.
We tend to forget Kaladin was very good at surgery, much like Adolin isn’t bad at the whole soldering thing and all it implies.
What went wrong? Kaladin simply did not *really* want to be a surgeon. This wasn’t the *righ* path for him even if he was raised for it, even if it is useful, even if the world could use more surgeons, even if he was good at it, it just wasn’t *right* for him.
I think Adolin is the same. It matters not what his duty is, how he was raised, how many people pushes him towards leadership, what if, much like Kaladin, this simply *isn’t* the right journey for him?
What if Adolin’s future isn’t to pick up his father’s mantle and lead the armies as everyone thinks he will? If the Radiants all have the luxury to choose their own personal growth path in life, then why should Adolin be forced to stay on the path chosen for him by others? If Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah and Renarin all were allowed to break the chains of expectations once put on them, then why should Adolin be forced to remain within his?
I think the knot of the debate is most disagree leadership might not be the right path for Adolin, most believe the path Adolin was put on by Dalinar is perfectly acceptable, the right one, the sole and only growth avenue for him. I always thought the opposite and, lately, it seems Brandon opened the door for Adolin to have other options than just being “Dalinar’s dutiful son”, so we’ll all see.
On loyalty: Adolin hasn’t led the Kholin armies for long and as its commander, he doesn’t have many victories to his name. In WoK, Dalinar states the soldiers *liked* Adolin, but liking and being loyal too are two different things. Granted, we never saw them interact with him so it is hard to evaluate how they feel next to him. I’d however point out, in WoK, which wasn’t that far ago, most saw Adolin as nothing more than a silly superficial kid. I doubt he has grown enough in the mind of most for him to have garner even half the respect his father has, whether he deserves it or not.
Radiants: Based on what we saw in OB, people expects/wants the Radiants to take the lead. It seems doubtful they would be happy with “just Adolin”, the only “normal guy” out of the “Royal Family”. At some point, someone will ask “why” and may make the jump of logic (whether it is the right one or not) it may be because he isn’t worthy of leadership.
Wow. Sorry I’ve been so out-of-touch with the discussions lately! I’ll try to remedy that… So, playing catch-up:
Isilel @29 – Upon reviewing what I wrote, I think it was poorly worded. I had no intention of saying there is no Stormlight in Shinovar; that would obviously be incorrect. My intent was to suggest that there may have been a time when Shinovar was completely isolated from the highstorms and thus from Stormlight. I don’t know that it was, but it’s possible that Honor & Culltivation set things up so that the humans had all they needed to live in their isolated area, but were intentionally denied Investiture because of how they’d used it previously. The story then would reflect how some human – presumably a girl or young woman, and quite possibly Shalash – decided she wanted to know what was on the other side of the mountains, and found Stormlight available. If she had some innate ability to Surgebind the way they had done on Ashyn, and brought back the Stormlight to fuel her ability, others would obviously replicate her action. My suggestion was that then, once they knew what was available, they would have broken the barrier – whether it was physical, magical, or both – thereby allowing the highstorms to reach Shinovar with their load of Investiture.
@several – I think it’s pushing a point way too far to say Adolin doesn’t have anyone’s loyalty, or doesn’t inspire loyalty. Of course the Kholin army is loyal to Dalinar; he’s the highprince. How could they legitimately be loyal to Adolin over Dalinar? That doesn’t mean that if something happened to Dalinar, they wouldn’t follow Adolin just as loyally. (Some of them might be even more loyal because he’s not the Blackthornj, though of course that’s impossible to know at this point.) Frankly, we have virtually no data on whether Adolin has the capacity to inspire loyalty; he’s never been in a position for us to see it. He’s the son of the highprince and cousin of the king; in what situation could we expect people to show greater loyalty to Adolin than to either Dalinar or Elhokar? Let it ride; we’ll see how it plays out in the next book when he’s the highprince himself.
birgit @51 – “Adolin is more likely to be a different kind of leader who encourages others to do a good job without having to give orders constantly because they think they can’t do anything without his approval.” Hear, hear!
As others have said, Adolin is an experienced and trusted leader – he was leading the Kholin armies without Dalinar quite regularly at the beginning of the series. If you look at the way his men followed him during the Narak episodes, I don’t think he’s going to have trouble being a leader whose people follow him willingly/eagerly. My expectation is that they will be loyal because they trust him and know he cares for them, where they were loyal to Dalinar because he was the biggest and baddest and everyone knew you’d better not cross the Blackthorn. Sure, Adolin needs to learn that he doesn’t have to BE Dalinar – but that doesn’t mean setting aside all his experience, it just means accepting that he has a different leadership style.
BenW @67 – “But that’s kind of a low bar to clear.” Too true, that!
Isilel and Alice bring up great points regarding Adolin and leadership. Soldiers in Kholinar Army want to follow Dalinar? Too bad, he isn’t available, busy uniting the entire globe and all that. Kaladin has never lead more than a company of troops and has a long way to go before anyone would feel comfortable giving him command of the entire war effort. He’s a lead-from-the-front type of commander, one who inspires loyalty in those he leads, that is something you just cannot teach. But in a large scale army you need the guys like Sigzil too. Kaladin’s Bridge 4 experiment would have failed already without people like Sigzil to do his logistics, and commanders of Kaladin’s ilk have difficulty with that part of the job typically. Adolin may not want the job, he may wish to choose a different path, but the fact of the matter is that in a Desolation he will not be able to avoid fighting. Due to his birthright there will be people on hand that will follow him into battle, and no matter who he ultimately becomes I cannot see Adolin as the type to stand aside when people, especially family, are in danger. This is the same guy that worked himself ragged trying to prepare for a fight he knew he could not win, when Szeth was still hunting Dalinar. So he will fight, and he will lead. I’ve seen the referenced WOB and I interpreted it as him figuring out how he’s going to lead. Fighting is inevitable but it matters how he will fight, and ultimately how he will lead.
As far as the other Radiants being free to pursue their Journey in their own way, well that’s not exactly true. It can be argued in fact that their leash is tighter, their margin for error much thinner, because they have a spren to answer to, one that is party to most of their inner thoughts and insecurities. There is always a threat for them that if they stray too far from their path they lose their powers. But even if that were not the case, no Radiant is sitting out of this fight. Lyft is 13 years old and she was fighting Fused right along side the grown ups. Shallan is still a teenager and she was out there building armies out of the mist. Do you think they’d rather be doing something else? All of the Radiants we’ve seen so far have been exceptional or they would not have been picked. Nearly every one represents a chance taken after a long hiatus. None of the spren picked someone who would rather be on the sideline. Their journeys may be more individualistic but they are all fighting. If Adolin’s path is to eventually revive Maya, do you think she’s going to let him wander off and do a spirit quest or some such? No, he’ll be fighting with her in hand against the Fused and the dying of the light. He’ll be leading people because he’s the leader they got even if he isn’t necessarily the leader they’d want. He isn’t going to stand by or run away and that will bring people to rally around him no matter how good or bad a leader he may be; he will look the part and for many soldiers fearing the destruction of their very world, that will be enough. Will he become the ultimate commander of all human forces against Odium? Not likely, but I don’t think he has to be. Will there be better leaders that will come along? I’m sure there will be. But as long as he isn’t a walking disaster like Elkohar pre-Kholinar Raid then he’ll be better than average.
@74-75: Then we may have to respectfully disagree as what you have suggested is status quo for Adolin’s character, it implies him doing exactly what he has been doing so far: trying to be Dalinar, having the same goals are Dalinar and trying to achieve them in the same manner. There aren’t a thousand ways to lead an army and Dalinar’s way probably is the only efficient way to achieve it. Kaladin’s way being the one needed to increase the army size by getting new recruits. Even if Adolin’s leadership “style” involves greater proximity with his men, it still doesn’t differ enough from the “Dalinar path” to be count as an “alternative”. It is more of the same. It is more of Adolin being a soldier.
My interpretation of the WoB strongly differs: Adolin either chooses to the status quo which implies what everyone has been arguing was the sole alternative for his character or he chooses another path. As a reader, I am far more interested in the second option as, down this road, probably lies Maya, but Brandon was quite clear: reviving Maya isn’t the foregone conclusion of Adolin’s arc. It can happen, but only is Adolin makes certain decisions and, right now, it isn’t a given he’ll chose the second option. He may stick with the status quo though I am surprised so few readers are calling it for what it is, a status quo. Just as I am surprised readers seem to believe he’ll revive Maya while sticking to a path he never chose. This is… the anti-Radiant behavior.
The Radiants had the choice to embark on a journey and receive instant gratification they were making the right choices. Most people tend not to pick up the fruits of their labor until much later just as most people usually aren’t being told they are making the right choices each time they do make one. The Radiants got to choose their journey and it may not be easy, but it is a hardship they have *chosen*. It was their choice.
Adolin never chose his path. He was told this was going to be his journey and he should stick with it. I am surprised everyone in the thread believes the whole “military side” of Adolin’s character is the sole path for him or even the right path for him when the narrative implied how ill-at-ease he is with it, when the narrative implied he never chose it for himself.
It is thus my beliefs Adolin wasn’t made a Radiant because the journey he walks on isn’t his own, because he never made the choice the other Radiants made in part because he was never allowed to make a choice and in another part because he never knew there were alternatives. Even if he did, he doesn’t know which one he wants for himself.
Kaladin chose to be a soldier.
Dalinar chose his life trajectory from day one and chose to be a Bondsmith.
Shallan chose to become Jasnah’s ward and get involve with the Kholins.
Renarin chose to become a scholar.
Jasnah chose to be a non-believer and a scholar.
Lift chose to forsake all expectations and to be her own person.
Szeth chose to follow Dalinar.
What did Adolin choose? Ah yes. Nothing. He chose nothing. Everything he is was imposed on him. Therefore, if most people on this thread somehow thinks this is the appropriate journey, if most people believe the path Dalinar set Adolin on is the only rightful path for his charcter, worst, it is the desirable path to revive Maya, then I fear no additional argumentation from my part is going to score any points.
I just very strongly completely and totally disagree Adolin as a military leader and a soldier is the right journey for his character as it comes directly from the expectations Dalinar placed on him. They aren’t *him* though I agree it is clear now Adolin *may* choose the wrong path for himself because that’s what most people do: they stick with the status quo.
Hence I respectfully agree to disagree with everyone on this one. Everything Brandon said about Adolin opens the door for so much more than him just boringly leading the Kholin armies and transforming himself into another version of Dalinar, I am surprised there aren’t more readers who actually root for it, but nothing I can do about that!
We’ll eventually see if I was right or wrong, but I’ll be rooting for Brandon to write the second option and give Adolin more choices in life than just being “Dalinar the Second”. Every argument I read in this thread is more of the same: Adolin becomes “Dalinar the Second” because he has too, because there is a Desolation so screw choices, but it is a “different path” because he’ll add his own flair to leadership. Flair doesn’t count for a different path. “Being nicer than Dalinar” also doesn’t count as an alternative path. Not for me, it doesn’t. And I doubt this is what Brandon had in mind.
So I will rooting, alone if necessary, but I’ll root for Brandon to surprise me and write the unexpected.
@75 EvilMonkey
There are a bunch of quotes in the book and WoB (that I will be happy to post if requested), lead me to believe regardless the order you are a member of, you can advance in your oaths without experiencing a single moment of combat. I think Adolin will help with the war effort, but focus more on establishing and settling his displaced Kholinar people who he is a highprince to. I think through this he can continue to strengthen his connection with Maya. I have a personal theory that with Dalinar’s help as a bondsmith to rebuild what was torn out of Maya, coupled with the stronger connection Adolin has created with her (like Dalinar did with Oathbringer) will lead to her revival. I dunno, personally I do not think Adolin needs to be in the thick of the fight, nor leading soldiers in order to revive Maya. Lift’s oaths could just as easily be made without a single blade drawn. I think Adolin will focus on being a highprince to the kholin princedom. Dalinar and Adolin working together on reviving Maya to heal her as well as heal their relationship between father and son is where I think their story is going. But everyone has their preferences.
I think Tam’s lesson to Rand in another beloved book series applies to this conversation. Tam tells his son that what you fight for is much more important than the fighting itself. There exists a path Adolin can take where he fights but still becomes a different man than Dalinar. Because knowing the character, I find it not only unlikely but unrealistic for Adolin to sit out a Desolation on the sidelines by choice. And unless he renounces the Kholin princedom I anticipate that he will lead troops. I mean what would he even do while the cities of Roshar burned? Explore the caves of Amia? Become a foriegn ambassador? Retire to a country estate not overrun by the armies of the Fused? He could be good at other roles, he’s multi talented and handsome. In any time other than a Desolation he could go the rest of his life without picking up a sword for anything other than personal defense. But against a foe that doesn’t die in a world where magic users for team Honor are woefully undermanned, he will fight whether he wants to or not. And he will fall quickly unless he has an army around him. Granted he may still die surrounded by an army, but his odds of survival improve significantly than if he were on his own. At this point it isn’t even about oath progression, it’s just the nature of the times. His choice will not be whether or not to fight; the war is already here. His choice will be how he fights, what type of person he will be as he swings Maya around.
#71, @Scáth:
Sorry about the delay. You asked about what I meant in the Warbreaker annotations, about the Returned having auto-charisma. Here’s one example from the Chapter 49 annotation:
(This is actually marked as a spoiler even for people reading the Annotation, so I’ll white it out.)
There are other, similar comments in the Annotations as well.
Since I read it in high school, “The Grand Inquistor” from Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov has been my favorite chapter in any book. “The Girl Who Stood Up” has surpassed it. Reading it for like the sixth time today, I was once again in tears. It’s beautifully written, honest about trauma and depression, but also hopeful. It’s a turning point for Shallan, as she slows her careening descent into her personas. She isn’t “healed” by the end of the book, but whatever measure of control she has over Veil and Radiant at that point can be traced back to this chapter.
This chapter is also why I can’t buy the “Hoid is the true Cosmere villian” hypothesis. He’s surely made (terrible?) mistakes and he might have to choose the lesser of two evils in some situation (e.g. his comment to Dalinar about letting Roshar burn), but his willingness to go out of his way to strengthen Shallan here and his actions in the epilogue (helping the child and Kheni) are the actions of a good person, who goes out of his way to help people. I think chapter just solidified him as my favorite character.
marethyu316 @80:
Didn’t Hoid explicitly say “I am not here for you” to Shallan? Yes, he goes out of his way to help some people and I think that Shallan might even become his apprentice for a time if she ever leaves Roshar. But I am not sure that I would exclude the possibility of him becoming the final antagonist in the Cosmere sequence. Sympathetic people can sometimes pursue goals that turn out to be terrible and it would make him a great villain if we could empathise and agree with his decisions on the long way down until we reach the line in the sand were we no longer can and realise that yes, despite all the good in him he is the villain.
Not saying that this is going to happen, mind you. Just that it is a possible avenue for the over-arching mega-plot.
@81 – ooh, so they could kind of go a Daenerys direction with him (although I trust Sanderson to actually pull that one off way more than the showrunners actually did).